SCIENCE MEETS: Dr. Kelly Shen

Dr. Kelly Shen discusses collaboration

In August of 2015, Dr. Kelly Shen and I bonded over several servings of Kaiserschmarren in Vienna, Austria, and began a collaboration that would span several years and link together the functions of the oculomotor and hippocampal systems. Funny thing was, we had already been working together, but it took dedicated time away at the European Conference on Eye Movements to have fulsome, creative conversations. Those conversations culminated in a lunchtime break in the sun during which we wrote our “Vienna Plan”: a series of projects, questions, and review papers we wanted to tackle that would programmatically demonstrate how integral the hippocampal memory system was for moment-to-moment visual exploration. And then we set out to achieve that Vienna Plan, and create a ‘2.0’ version.

Our work together over the years resulted in a deep sense of trust, and a natural ease in discussing science, work, and the joys and struggles of personal life. Kelly has recently moved to a new position at Simon Fraser University as Senior Program Manager and Informatics Team Lead for the newly created Institute for Neuroscience and Neurotechnology. Critical to success in her new position is the development and support of new interdisciplinary collaborations that seek to understand individual brain health trajectories. We recently got together for a virtual chat and coffee over Zoom and reflected on what makes scientific collaborations work.

JDR: Our collaboration really took off in Vienna; how do you think that happened? What did we need in order to get the context right to create that huge plan of work?

KS: That trip allowed us to get to know each other better. Sometimes it takes a disengagement from typical meetings to just be together and talk freely without boundaries; it’s more improvisational and allows for creativity. I also didn’t fully appreciate your willingness to bridge your depth of understanding of the medial temporal lobe memory system with my deep wells of knowledge regarding the oculomotor system. There was a realization that we both had a flexible approach, and that we were open and willing to give each other space to share our perspectives.

JDR: What did we get right in moving the collaboration and the projects forward?

KS: We’re really good at negotiating with each other: who does what, when, or what gets dropped.  We’re both the type of people who just say what we need; there’s an honesty in communicating where we are at.  Our values aligned; we value openness and honesty, we have a judgment free zone, and we operate with integrity. There’s no hesitation in pulling data or redoing projects when things go wrong.

JDR: 2019 was a really challenging year for both of us. We thought surely (!) 2020 was going to be better, and then the pandemic hit. During that time, we each struggled with our health and personal lives in different ways, and somehow we got through it and produced, in my opinion, some amazing review papers that brought together our different ways of thinking. How did we manage to do all of that?!

KS: One reason it worked so well was because we created a judgment-free zone. Personal challenges (e.g., illness, physical and mental pain, parental leave) are often met with judgment, but we gave each other accommodation and space to say, “Today, I am not physically or mentally well enough to tackle this”. You can’t say that to everyone in STEM. We also changed the baseline; rather than starting with A+ work each time, we said, “Can we try B- work? We’ll go from there”. We also have empathy for one another. The person comes first, and the science comes after. And it makes the science so much better. We have each seen PIs treat people or value them as a work product, rather than as a human being. When that is embedded in the culture, that can be hard to break.

JDR: As you embark on your journey at SFU, what are you looking for in new collaborators/collaborations?

KS: I want to get a better sense of the whole person – what is their worldview, are they multi-dimensional, what do they value? I have also been re-evaluating what I want for my career. I’m moving away from independent research and more towards team-based work; I want new technical challenges. Will this new collaboration enhance the vision I have for myself? Will it open new networks and opportunities, or broaden my skill sets? I’m looking for projects that will allow me to learn and develop. I’m looking for people who will embrace that flexibility and allow me to play in a given space.  Above all, I trust my gut and that helps me to identify people who are trustworthy, authentic, and are willing to be open and share.

JDR: Are there strategies you have for managing collaborations, especially when the project or the interactions aren’t going well?

KS: I’ve learned how to manage collaborations by watching others do it. I’ve watched mentors do it well, and others not do it well, or do it in a way that doesn’t sit well with me. Everyone’s motivations within the collaboration are different; some people may be driven by the process of having scientific conversations, some people are driven by the research outcomes. Disentangling what people need versus what they say is tricky, particularly if I see and understand problematic areas before they do. In that case, I ‘tell it like it is, but tell it slant’; I give the person analogous scenarios that help them become aware of the problem and develop the solutions they need to overcome it, rather than necessarily confronting it head on and getting people’s defenses up.

JDR: Do you have advice to give to trainees on collaborations? Or to PIs who are trying to teach their trainees about effective collaboration management?

KS: Until recently, I had never fully thought about how our collaborations affect our trainees. It’s important for trainees to see successful collaborations.  They are clearly absorbing all of this information, even when we’re not paying attention to it. We need to be aware of how we are modelling certain behaviors. We need to ensure that everyone is treating each other respectfully, and we need to empower trainees to ask pointed questions, “What is my role in this collaboration? What are the expected timelines? What does authorship look like in this scenario?” There should be open conversations about expectations, the metrics for success, and also the breakpoints. When do we call it quits on this collaboration? Research priorities may have shifted for one or more partners on the collaboration, and it’s important to be able to speak freely on that.

JDR: Thanks for chatting with me about this. It’s really helpful and important to be deliberate in thinking about collaborations; what works, what doesn’t, and why. Now that things are opening up from the pandemic, I think we really need to find a place that has Kaiserschmarren and go hang out.

KS: Yes! Until then, I did find a recipe… 

To learn more about Dr. Kelly Shen and her research, follow her on Twitter , LinkedIn and at SFU.

To learn more about our collaborations regarding the intersection of memory and oculomotor behavior, click here

To see a few photos from our Vienna trip, head over to our Instagram

For a Kaiserschmarren recipe, check out this page